Among Christians, this concept theology is a hotly debated topic. Does God predestine people to salvation or doesn’t He? Both sides of the debate will not argue that God does predestine for it is in scripture. However, what is debated is the meaning or His means of predestination. I admit that this has been an incredibly difficult concept for me to accept. I started my walk following synergist (Arminiast) theology before, and I might add reluctantly, accepting what is clearly delineated in scripture, Monergism.
One side states that God chose from the foundation of the world whom He will have mercy on. The other side states that God, based on His foreknowledge and looking down the corridor of time, predestined those that chose Him.
- In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, (Eph 1:11)
- For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Rom 8:29-30 ESV)
In the secular dictionary, predestined is defined as "To fix upon, decide, or decree in advance; foreordain." The Greek word translated to "predestination" is proorizō" which is derived from the Greek word "pro" meaning fore or prior. The second word that it is derived from is the Greek word "horizon" which means to "mark out, appoint, decree, limit or ordain." "Proorizo" (predestination) as defined by Strong’s is "to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: – determine before, ordain, predestinate." Both the secular dictionary and the bible dictionary define ‘predestination’ as to decide or decree in advance.
The difficulty with the teaching that God looked down the corridor of time and predestined those that chose Him is that it changes the meaning of the word "predestine." If God looked down the corridor of time and chose that chose Him, God is limited based on man’s choice. In other words, God does not predetermine (the meaning of predestination) but bases His actions on how man acts.
- "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, (Eph 1:4-5 ESV)"
The bible states that God chose us and predestined us for adoption. In no way does the bible state that man chose God and God reacted based on His foreknowledge. God acts and man reacts, not the other way around.
If we are to read the bible literally and take the literal meaning of ‘predestination’ this concept can be seen throughout the whole of the bible starting in the Old Testament. God chose Abraham, He chose the Israelites, He chose Jacob over Esau.
The following verses from the Old Testament demonstrate that God has preordained and predetermined.
- "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jer 1:5). (God has already predestined that he will be prophet to the nations).
- But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. (Exo 9:16) (in reference to Pharaoh)
- "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. (Deu 7:6)
- Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage! (Psa 33:12)
Deuteronomy 7:6 states that out of all the people on the face of the earth, God chose the Israelites to be His treasured possession. He chose them and set them apart from the rest of the peoples of the earth. Contrast this with 1 Peter 2:9 which states essentially the same thing. "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light."
God’s methodology has not changed from the Old Testament to the New Testament. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and compassion on whom He will have compassion (Romans 9:15, Exodus 33:19).
God ordains. Ordain means to decree or order. What God ordains, it will come to pass. What God predestines, it will come to pass. What God decrees, it will come to pass.
The decrees of God are (1.) efficacious, as they respect those events he has determined to bring about by his own immediate agency; or (2.) permissive, as they respect those events he has determined that free agents shall be permitted by him to effect. (Easton’s Bible Dictionary).
God refers to those that He chose as His elect. Elect is the Greek word "eklektos" which means "picked out, chosen" (ek, "from," lego, "to gather, pick out."
To predestinate, ordain, decree, elect are all words that denote one doing and one responding. It is a cause and effect. If, as is believed by some that God predestinated based on our action, then the cause and effect is man, man acts and God responds. This is contrast to God acting and man responding.
The scripture states "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Rom 8:30)
The bible asserts the order in which salvation takes place. (1) He predestined, (2) at His appoint time, He calls, (3) He justifies (salvation); and (4) glorifies. There is no suggestion or any text in the Word of God that supports that God has looked down the corridor of the time continuum to determine who will choose Him.
Destine means to set apart for a particular use, purpose, etc.; design; intend. "Pre" is a prefix attached to a stem word that modifies the meaning. As such, attaching the prefix "pre" to "destine" modifies the word ‘destine’ much as attaching the prefix ‘pre’ to ‘determine.’ In other words, to predetermine, one will make the determination before the event. To predestine, God has made the determination before the event. He does not state nor does scripture support that His determination of election is based on man’s determination to be saved.
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OkieRob
March 21, 2009 at 7:22 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oh Tishrei,
Now you went and did it! My arminian cat must come out of the bag! Excellent post and for the record, I am not a full fledged “Armi” man. However, although man’s inability to seek out a righteous God makes sense, in my heart, I am a free will believer (not Free Will Baptist). In the end these are secondary issues to me; most importantly is living for Christ NOW and continuing to do so in the present. This is what we are called to do anyway and doing so fulfills the requirements for both persuasions! Thanks for encouraging me to continue my blog. You have been an encouragement to me and I am glad we crossed paths. I guess it was just meant to be that way…;)
OkieRob
tishrei
March 21, 2009 at 7:48 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hi OkieRob,
LOL on your arminian cat. First, I do gree with you that the most important thing we can do is live for Him who saved us and obey Him by proclaiming the Gospel to the lost.
As to theology, this is how I view it. If we are reading scripture with the right lens (i.e. correct theology), we are better equiped to understand His Word. Because we do not hold to “name it and claim it” we are not reading scripture though those lens and thus, not expecting, for instance, that whatever monetary gifts we give will automatically be blessed 7 fold.
As a side, I also was a synergist (what you call arminian). It wasn’t until a few years ago when it hit me in the face full force — God has been choosing all along. What made it different in the New Covenant? Why did He change in the New Covenant? He didn’t. He’s the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. So when I went back and read the passages on predestination and other such passages in the NT, it took on a whole new light. He said exactly what He meant. It is us that gave a whole new meaning to those passages.
As to free-will or free-choice (I did a blog post about that if you’re interested), we can only act within our nature. A believer has a different nature than a non believer. A dog can only act within his nature, my pet macaw can only act within his birdy nature, and humans can only act within their nature. A non Christian does not have a nature that will allow him to seek God. God has to seek him and regenerate his nature so that he has the ability. (I blogged that too I think). Anway, my next blog post will be about how God calls — His effectual call so that a non-believer can have the ability to choose Him.
p.s. Again, thanks for the link — I have enjoyed reading it and have saved it on my favorites
p.s. — on the comment ‘meant to be re paths crossing’ — it was predestined
OkieRob
March 21, 2009 at 6:02 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hi Tishrei,
How do these scriptures fit into the grand scheme of things?
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Although I can understand that an all-knowing God has the ability to know what we are going to do concerning our salvation, it has never set well with me that He chooses us. That would make us little more than angels or pawns. Some people like to use the example of the Lord hardening a man’s heart (i.e. Pharoah) as an example of predestination I see this very differently. All He has to do to harden our heart is to withdraw the presence of His Spirit from us. We then become unable to perceive Him or understand Him. So, if predestination means God choosing who He will convict and draw then yes; but He draws all men to Him – opening their eyes, if even for a moment, giving them the knowledge to make a choice for Him.
OkieRob
tishrei
March 21, 2009 at 9:32 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hi OkieRob,
John 12:32: Who are the “all men” that He will draw unto Himself. If I just said, the elect, you’d say how do you know and why is that more valid than you saying “all men” is all of humanity.
In the Old Testament, God was working with the Jews, for the most part, the gentiles did not have a part. But back in the Old Testament, God said that “In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples–of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious.(Isa 11:10)” This also can be found in Romans “And again Isaiah says, “The root of Jesse will come, even he who arises to rule the Gentiles; in him will the Gentiles hope.” (Rom 15:12). In other words, what Jesus is saying in John 12:32 is fulfilling the prophecy found in Isaiah and confirmed in Romans 15. “All men” is not referencing every single human being but people from all nations. He is drawing people to Him from all nations. I think of it like this. In days gone by, universities only allowed white men as students. Now, all peoples, men, women, all colors, ethnicities, religions, etc. are admitted. But not every single person of every single color, ethnicity, religion, man or woman are chosen for admission. Within the university, both sexes, all ethnicities, color, religion, etc. are represented. In other words, Jesus draws to Himself men (as in humanity) from all nations (as in peoples of all ethnicities) but not every single person from every single nation is drawn.
Regarding 2 Cor 13:5, if you look just a couple of verses before (13:3), they were seeking proof that Christ was speaking through Paul. As such, he directs them to examine themselves like they are examining him. They are seeking some kind of proof that Christ is in him, and he’s saying “hey, you want proof, look at yourselves and see if that proof you are seeking in me is also in you. He ends it with a question — if the proof that you expect to be in me is not in you, does that mean you are a reprobate?
John 6:44 is a proof text for what I was saying in my blog. Man cannot come to Him unless he is drawn by God. God has to act first before man can react.
Seriously, I COMPLETELY understand where you’re coming from. It hasn’t been that long ago when I stood where you are (just a few years ago). I’m nothing more than some person in another state blogging away on this site — so don’t take my word for it. Just examine the scriptures and scripture will back up other scripture. If there seems to be an inconsistency, there is none — it is us fallible humans that do not understand.
tishrei
March 21, 2009 at 9:37 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think I will leave this for later. I don’t want to appear like I’m pushing my theological views upon you and coming across like a hard-nose person. I hated it when people did that to me. All I will say is go through the scriptures and look at the passages where God chooses one over another, where He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, things like that.
OkieRob
March 22, 2009 at 2:31 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You are not pushy! I enjoy visiting and thinking! So don’t ever worry about being pushy! Opinionate away! It is nice to be able to discuss, listen, and learn even if disagreements are involved! I am glad to see that in this day and age, God still has an elect that even want to talk about Him and serve Him! I love Him so much and can tell you do too!
Blessings,
OkieRob
tishrei
March 22, 2009 at 10:39 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thank you. In the body, as we are not yet perfected, there will be disagreements. If we can’t discuss our faith in Christian love, then in my opinion, we should not discuss it as it is a really bad witness. Thank you for your very kind words.
Be blessed,
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